Should IS keep the combat simple or should they expand it beyond what we currently see in Apocalypse?


Tanks with Fishing Pole
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27 December 2018
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As pointed out in another thread IS is aiming for a group balance rather than a specific class balance so a little research project arose; What is the goal for a rock-paper-scissors (RPS) PvP balance?

The goal of a rock-paper-scissors PvP balance is for a particular class to have many weaknesses compared to one class and dominating strengths compared to another - Essentially a "I Win!" button against one or a few while being a "Run Away!" scenario against others.

With that in mind a little research was undertaken and there was much to be found.

The prevailing thoughts across the various PvP-centered game forums were;
  • Mage (Paper) beats Warrior (Rock) beats Rogue (Scissors) beats Mage.
and more comically,
  1. Paper beats Rock.
  2. Scissors beat Paper.
  3. Scissors also happens to beat Rock until Rock hits max level at which point Rock becomes an unstoppable killing machine and then also beats Paper - Would also beat Scissors, but it can't find Scissors because Scissors is invisible.
  4. So Scissors beats Paper and avoids Rock and that is called BALANCE.
But also came across this quote posted 8-9 years ago;
  • "I tried to make a point in my previous post that the rock, paper, scissors idea SHOULD NOT apply to classes. One class should not always be able to beat any other class. I believe that successful PVP is based around every class having at their disposal abilities that when used can beat any other class when used right. The rock, paper, scissors concept means as a mage I should use abilities A,B,C against a warrior and X,Y,Z against a shaman. My ability to adapt to the situation is what makes me a great PVPer. If I am using abilities A,B,C against all classes and winning then I am OP"
I agree that a highly skilled player with many class abilities should have a better than average chance at prevailing over any other class. This doesn't mean the average player would but with enough testing and practice there would be very few classes that a highly skilled player could learn to master and become competitive in PvP.

Should IS go with the simplified Q, C, V, 1-6 keys combat system the above sentiment appears difficult to implement - For a mage to prevail against a fighter using one strategy but against a rogue using another strategy it would appear that many more skills would need to immediately available.

The number of skills in WoW during WotLK was daunting but a player could eventually learn which were better for PvE and which were PvP focused.

I lean toward more choices because I like choice. But does the average gamer of today?
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Forum Bot
11 September 2018
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I hope they expand it, but not to the scale of WoW with 4 skillbars required.

They want to implement both tab-targeting and action combat so people can choose their preferred playstyle, although I do not understand how this is going to work without forcing a certain combat style for certain aspects of the game.

Tab-target combat will be superior to action combat in Dungeons and Raids and in general mostly superior to anything compared to action combat which is just infinitely more fun to play.

It is not really a "choice" if one combat style is superior over the other in every aspect. I personally would like them to invest into a proper action combat system similar to Black Desert, even though BDOs combat still has room for improvement.

If they want to force tab-target down our throats, then I hope they invest into a superior version of Neverwinters combat system, which is both tab-target and action combat and similar to what we could see in APOC.

If they don't get combat right, I don't expect to play the game for long and I am sure a huge chunk of the playerbase will not either.
  • Agree
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Lord Ashes
15 January 2018
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Here are a few things that I find important for balance:

I find the principle of rock-paper-scissor to be good. All classes should have some weakness, that certain other classes may exploit.
That said, no class should be a hard-counter to another class. Meaning that as long as you play as mage, any rogue will have a 80% chance of beating you (same level/gear), regardless of skill. You gain an advantage yes, but it does not mean you should always win. I agree with you in the fact that players should be provided with choices! Certain paths of your spell progression may be boosting your group PvE usefulness, while others may help you become stronger in small-scale PvP.

An example would be that the mage class has some powerful root and slow spells, while the rogue has some nice backstab/fade into shadows, then crit strike you spells. It would counter some of the pesky core spells of the mage, tilting the win chance in your favor. That said, the mage may have gone for some alternate spell talent unlocks, allowing them to alleviate some of these counters. For example a knock-back spell and a debuff that slows down your attack speed/damage for X seconds (would be more poweful vs classes that rely on high attack speed, as the debuff is based on X seconds, not amount of attacks).

Group balance (PvP and PvE) is more important than 1v1 PvP balance. Sure, doing 1v1 duels can be fun, but balancing all classes to be perfectly balanced and equal in viability vs the rest, while still maintain a good group balance would be impossible. Thankfully Intrepid shares this view.

I think this may be where the secondary class system is important. Players are provided with several options to either boost their strengths further (Going Mage-Mage), or help alleviate their weaknesses (Mage-Tank for general survivability), and that no class is a auto-win vs another, then they are on a good path.


25 February 2019
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With the rock paper scissors concept, I think OSRS (Oldschool Runescape) nailed this. I've been playing that since 2002, and it's simple. I believe it's Mage beats Melee, Melee beats Range, and Range beats mage. Though of course if you have skill or can swap fast enough you have the advantage. But the concept itself is nice. However, with your standard class MMO such as this it's hard to do that. You can't make Healers / Supports do more damage than another class, same as tanks. They're specifically there for support features. Healing, revives, taunts, etc. I personally think the combat should be geared towards this. Mages should be able to do a HUGE burst of damage but have super long cool downs, whilst Range does super fast attacks that deal significantly less damage and the melee class has a little bit of both being able to chose a rogue-esc class, or a two handed beast. Whilst allowing healers to do a very small amount of damage, with good heals, and tanks being able to do the same as healers but with taunts, buffs, etc.